Intro to Cartomancy & Beliefs

A quick note before we begin: This article is a blend of history, research, opinion, and my experience with tarot, Lenormand, and cartomancy. It’s not meant to define every deck, reader, tradition, or interpretation system.

People approach these tools differently. That is part of what makes the subject interesting. What follows is my perspective as an author, a card reader, and the woman who gave Marnie Reilly her deep distrust of charlatans.

Anyone who has read the Marnie Reilly Mysteries Series knows my good friend and main character abhors charlatans. That’s not an accident.

I often inflict my characters with my personal biases, fears, and grudges. Marnie’s fear of closed spaces? Mine. Detective Danny Gregg’s aversion to creepy dolls? Also mine. Marnie’s lack of patience for spiritual frauds and people who prey on the vulnerable? Oh, that’s all me.

I’ve met a few tricksters in my travels. So, I gave my psychic psychologist a moral compass that points to a true north of authenticity. Marnie does not hate tarot, Lenormand, intuition, mediumship, or the unseen world. She loathes fraud, and so do I.

Cartomancy was Not Born in Darkness

Tarot was not created to summon demons, and cartomancy was not born in darkness. Those fears came later, when people mistook symbolic, unfamiliar tools for dangerous ones.

Cartomancy is the practice of reading cards for insight, reflection, or divination. Tarot is one form of cartomancy, and probably the best known. Lenormand, oracle decks, and ordinary playing cards belong to the broader conversation, too, though each system has its own structure, history, and language.

The problem is not the cards themselves. The sticky bit is that people misunderstand them, fear them, or use them to manipulate someone who came looking for guidance.

The cards have never been the villain. The charlatans are.

A card reading can be useful. But sometimes folks are foolish. They don’t dig in and find a reputable reader but opt for whoever is available. A friendly word of warning: charlatans are dangerous and they are everywhere.

Cartomancy Before the Fear

The earliest tarot decks appeared in fifteenth-century northern Italy.

They were not created for devil worship, dark rituals, curses, or midnight séances. They were luxury cards, often created for noble families, and used in games. Some of the most famous surviving examples are associated with the Visconti and Sforza families of Milan.

Yup. It’s what you think. Rich people playing with fancy cards.

These early decks were hand-painted, richly detailed, and full of the visual language of their time. They reflected court culture, religion, philosophy, power, morality, fate, temptation, triumph, death, judgment, and the human journey through life.

The tarot deck added a special group of trump cards. Over time, these evolved into what modern readers call the Major Arcana. Dramatic? Of course. It sounds as if it should be locked in a stone tower beneath a full moon. But arcana refers to mysteries or secrets. And human life is full of both.

People in the fifteenth century lived close to mortality. Their churches, paintings, manuscripts, and public art were filled with angels, devils, saints, skulls, martyrs, judgment scenes, and reminders that life was brief and the soul must be protected. Tarot imagery evolved from the arts of the time.

From Card Game to Divination

For centuries, tarot was a card game. Its association with divination came during the eighteenth century, when French occult writers began linking tarot to ancient wisdom, Egypt, astrology, Kabbalah, hidden teachings, and mystical systems.

Some of those claims were speculative. Others were imaginative, and few have no historical relevance. But they changed Tarot forever.

During the 1700s, writers such as Antoine Court de Gébelin and Jean-Baptiste Alliette, better known as Etteilla, helped move tarot in the public imagination from game to mystical system. Etteilla was especially important in the development of tarot as a tool for fortune-telling.

That is where tarot begins to resemble what people recognize today. We have cards for inquiry, pattern recognition, intuition, and reflection. And let’s not forget divination.

But even then, the cards themselves are not the danger. It’s always the person reading them. Think of it like this: a hammer is handy when building a house or breaking a window to rob a residence. The hammer isn’t the moral problem. The hand holding it is.

Playing Cards Belong in the Conversation Too

A regular deck of playing cards belongs in the cartomancy conversation. They aren’t tarot, but they’re close cousins. In many reading systems, the four playing-card suits line up with the four tarot suits. Hearts correspond to Cups. They speak of emotions, relationships, love, intuition, and matters of the heart. Spades are Swords, representing mind, thoughts, communication, decisions, conflict, clarity, and challenges. Diamonds are Pentacles or Coins, covering money, work, career, the body, the material world, resources, and what we build in practical life. Clubs are Wands, representing action, ambition, creativity, energy, passion, movement, and new ventures.

That does not make a regular playing-card pack identical to a tarot deck, which has seventy-eight cards, including the Major Arcana and additional court cards. A standard playing-card pack comes in a package of fifty-two with no Major Arcana. Same beast. Different breed.

That is why cartomancy is the broader word. Tarot may be the deck most people recognize, but it is not the only card system people use for readings.

The Suits and Numbers Have Their Own Language

Here’s another reason people should not pick up a deck, skim a booklet, and assume they are ready to read for someone. There is a language to learn. Below, I’m repeating myself a bit, but only because it’s important.

Suits

• Wands are connected with fire—the spark that pushes someone forward.
• Cups are connected with water and the inner life.
• Swords are connected with air and the mind.
• Pentacles are connected with earth and the material world.

Numbers

Let’s stack on another layer to make it more complicated.

• Aces point to beginnings.
• Twos suggest a decision, partnership, balance, or division.
• Threes are growth, progress, expression, or development.
• Fours bring structure, stability, consolidation, or a pause.
• Fives can point to change, struggle, loss, disruption, or conflict.
• Sixes represent stability, adjustment, healing, or movement toward balance.
• Sevens often ask for persistence, evaluation, courage, or deeper effort.
• Eights are strength, movement, discipline, or a shift in momentum.
• Nines suggest reflection, nearing completion, consequences, or inner reckoning.
• Tens signify completion, culmination, burden, fulfillment, or the end of a cycle.

Make it Make Sense

Suit tells you the arena. The number sets the stage. Images tell the story, and the surrounding cards give context. What about the reader? They bring study, intuition, honesty, and restraint to the table.

That’s why tarot is not as simple as memorizing a few keywords. Study the cards, sit with them, and notice how they behave together. A good reader understands symbols, suits, elements, numbers, court cards, spread positions, and the question being asked. And yes, you have to “feel” them.

Do not pick up a deck, glance at a few meanings, and assume you are ready to read for someone. Respect the cards and the craft of divination. If you need a guinea pig, choose a person who understands the process. Pick a pal who knows the reading is for practice and is neither professional nor set in stone. If possible, find a credible reader who enjoys mentoring.

Three Tarot Decks Worth Knowing

Not all decks feel the same, and while they share a similar structure, each holds a different tone.

Tarot de Marseille

Before Rider-Waite-Smith became the deck most people recognize, another deck held court.

The Tarot de Marseille is a style or pattern associated with French card-making traditions, especially from the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, with roots reaching into earlier Italian tarot traditions.

Compared with Rider-Waite-Smith, Marseille-style decks feel austere. The trump cards have strong symbolic imagery, but the numbered suit cards are less pictorial than the illustrated scenes in Rider-Waite-Smith.

The reading experience is different. Rider-Waite-Smith often invites stories through scenes. Marseille requires the reader to work with numbers, suits, structure, tradition, and symbols.

Rider-Waite-Smith

When people think about tarot, they often picture the Rider-Waite-Smith deck, even if they don’t know its proper name.

Published in 1909, the deck was conceived by Arthur Edward Waite and illustrated by Pamela Colman Smith. For too long, people shortened the name to Rider-Waite, pushing Smith’s contribution into the shadows. It annoys the hell out of me because Pamela Colman Smith’s artwork is the reason the deck became iconic.

Her images gave life to all seventy-eight cards, including the Minor Arcana. Instead of showing only simple arrangements of suits, the cards became scenes: a grieving figure before spilled cups, a weary man carrying too many wands, a young person offering a cup with a fish inside, or a woman closing a lion’s mouth.

Each card gives a glimpse. A full layout tells the story. In my humble opinion, it’s why the Rider-Waite-Smith deck remains one of the most recognizable and influential tarot decks in the world. Its images speak to the reader.

Aleister Crowley’s Thoth Deck

No discussion of modern tarot history is complete without mentioning the Thoth Tarot.

Aleister Crowley created the deck in collaboration with artist Lady Frieda Harris, whose paintings are striking, complex, and tied to Crowley’s esoteric system.

The deck has historical and artistic value, but I don’t use it. It doesn’t resonate. The energy of the deck feels icky to me. That is not scholarly condemnation. That’s my opinion. Some people are drawn to it. I’m not, and you have to feel good about the deck in your hands.

It’s a symbolic tool—not just a stack of pretty images. If the artwork, system, or energy of a deck clouds your judgment or makes you uncomfortable, choose something else. Lord knows, the world is not short on Tarot card options. Google tells me over a thousand decks exist, with more being released daily. Don’t work with a deck that makes your spirit sad.

Tarot Tells a Story Through Combinations

It is important to note that while a single card has meaning, digging deeper delivers context from the question(s) asked, content from the placement of the cards, and a bigger vision when all cards in the spread and their positions are taken into consideration. Further, what an experienced reader gleans from the spread and their intuition adds another layer.

Pulling the Tower should not cause a panic. It isn’t set in stone that an individual’s life is falling to ashes. The true meaning will become clear when other cards accompany it. It may suggest collapse, but it may also propose revelation, liberation, or the destruction of a negative pattern.

The Three of Swords beside one group of cards may speak of heartbreak. Beside another, it could point to surgery, painful truth, emotional release, or the end of denial.

The Lovers might signify a romance, but it may also offer a choice, a moral crossroads, temptation, alignment, career partnership, or the need to decide what kind of life you are choosing.

Context changes everything.

It’s important to remember that two experienced readers may interpret the same card or spread differently. It doesn’t always mean one is right and the other is wrong. Readers develop relationships with their decks. They see patterns and learn how certain cards speak to them in repeated situations. Their interpretations are shaped by study, instinct, experience, and the way the spread unfolds in front of them.

My go-to tarot teacher is Paul Fenton-Smith. His books are wonderful, and my interpretations tend to align with his approach. Other readers may connect more strongly with different teachers, systems, or traditions. That’s cool. Readers should trust their gut and experience.

Astrology Adds Another Layer

Tarot also carries astrological meaning.

In many tarot traditions, especially those connected to the Rider-Waite-Smith and Golden Dawn-influenced systems, cards have astrological correspondences.

Temperance is associated with Sagittarius, The Emperor is Aries, The Chariot is Cancer, The Moon is Pisces, as is the High Priestess. If you want to explore this further, The Crone provides great detail. https://the-crone.com/2021/05/28/the-astrological-associations-in-tarot/

Astrological correspondences add another layer to a reading. A card may carry an element, a planet, a zodiac sign, a season, a temperament, or an energetic pattern.

That doesn’t suggest every reader interprets every card the same way. It means tarot is a layered symbolic language, and astrology is just one of the languages woven through it.

Temperance may speak of balance, healing, patience, moderation, and integration. Add Sagittarius, and it may also carry themes of faith, wisdom, expansion, higher learning, spiritual searching, and the long view.

The Emperor may speak of structure, authority, leadership, protection, control, and order. Couple that with Aries, and the card can carry more force: action, initiative, command, willpower, and the need to lead rather than drift.

Takeaway: Tarot is not fortune-cookie reading. It is a layered and complex system that deserves a deeper understanding.

When Symbols Become Suspect

Symbols are powerful because they can tell a story.

If we look at the Eight of Swords, we see a blindfolded woman bound with a loose rope, and surrounded by eight downward-pointing swords. Gray skies above reflect her inner world, and a castle in the background says she is not alone. She appears trapped but note her feet are free to move. She can walk away any time she wants, and with movement, the restraint will fall, her hands will be free, and she can remove the blindfold. But the restraints force her to listen to her inner voice. She is strong enough to move forward because the eight signifies strength.

The Death Card Does Not Mean Physical Death

The Death card is one of tarot’s most misunderstood images. A responsible reader treats it as transformation, not a literal death for the querent or anyone around them.

Used carelessly, that card can frighten people. Used well, it points to endings, transitions, release, and necessary change. It may suggest the close of a relationship, job, habit, belief system, grief cycle, illusion, or old version of the self.

Context decides the message. The surrounding cards show whether Death is pointing toward painful change, freedom, renewal, or the overdue end of a situation that has been draining the life out of you.

Think of it as a chapter ending. Or sometimes, thank God, the dang thing blocking your path finally gets out of your way.

The Devil Card Isn’t What You Think

The Devil card has also suffered from terrible public relations. It’s not about Satanic allegiance. It often suggests bondage, obsession, addiction, fear, control, unhealthy attachment, temptation, shame, or giving away your power.

It’s not a basket of puppies, but it does tell a story.

The Devil card can ask hard questions. What controls you? Is there a habit you are pretending you can quit anytime? Is there a relationship, fear, fantasy, or story that has you chained to a situation that is hurting you?

Let’s face facts: human beings have a long history of calling uncomfortable things evil because it saves us the trouble of examining ourselves. Ouch!

Lenormand & Tarot are Cartomancy

Technically, Lenormand is not Tarot. But let’s not be precious.

People often refer to Lenormand, oracle cards, and other cartomancy systems as Tarot because, to most people, they live in the same world: cards, symbols, spreads, intuition, interpretation, and divination.

Same beast. Different breed.

Tarot and Lenormand don’t work exactly the same way, though, and the difference is worth knowing.

Tarot is layered, archetypal, psychological, and often spiritual. It tells a story through imagery, suit, number, symbol, astrology, and theme. A traditional tarot deck has seventy-eight cards, including the Major and Minor Arcana.

Lenormand tells a story too, but differently. It’s more direct. Now, that doesn’t mean simple. The cards speak through combinations. One card gives you a word. Two cards begin to form a phrase. A spread can become a sentence, a paragraph, or an ugly little truth sitting on the table, baring its teeth.

That’s one reason Lenormand is so powerful, and why Marnie Reilly and I love it.

The Game of Hope

Lenormand has its own strange little twist of history. The deck is named for Marie Anne Adélaïde Lenormand, the famous French fortune-teller, but she didn’t design the thirty-six-card deck most readers use today.

The origins of the Petit Lenormand reach back to a German game called Das Spiel der Hoffnung, or The Game of Hope, created around 1799 by Johann Kaspar Hechtel of Nuremberg.

The cards were laid out in a grid, and players moved through them. In that original game context, the images had practical consequences. Some cards helped. Others delayed, created obstacles, or signified safety, trouble, movement, or loss.

That history makes Lenormand even more interesting to me because the cards read in the same way they did back then. It’s about movement, consequences, connections, and patterns. A card doesn’t float in isolation. Rather, it has a relationship with the surrounding cards.

That’s why Lenormand works so well for Marnie Reilly. As a psychologist and clairvoyant who is also tangled up in murder investigations, Lenormand behaves like a grid of clues. The cards help her notice a pattern.

Lenormand Tells Stories Through Combinations

The Lilies card may suggest maturity, peace, wisdom, sexuality, or an older man, depending on the question and surrounding cards. The Book may suggest secrets, knowledge, study, documents, or something hidden. Together, Lilies and Book may point toward a lawyer or legal knowledge.

The Lilies and Scythe may suggest a surgeon, while the Bear and Lilies may suggest a police officer or another mature authority figure.

I love how the combinations tell a story. As an example, Fish can suggest money, flow, commerce, or resources. If a deck includes a Fountain card, the Fish and Fountain together may suggest money coming in. Add the Lilies and the Book to the larger picture, and the story may shift toward a legal win or financial gain through a legal matter.

And for fun? Snake and Heart together may mean temptation, sexual chemistry, complicated attraction, or great sex.

The Heart alone may suggest love, emotion, affection, or romance. On its own, the Snake may mean an obstacle, complication, jealousy, or a sleazy person in your life. Put them together, and the story changes.

Lenormand builds meaning through relationships. The cards lean on each other. They expand  the definition of the other.

Lenormand and Astrology

Like the Tarot, Lenormand cards also have astrological meanings. Not every reader uses astrological correspondences with Lenormand, and not every deck or system handles them the same way. But in the system I use, several cards carry zodiac associations that add another layer to the reading. What does this mean for a reader? It can help with timing.

• Lilies is Taurus.
• Fish is Gemini.
• House is Cancer.
• Snake is Leo.
• Flowers/Bouquet is Virgo.
• Roads/Crossroads is Libra.
• Stork is Scorpio.
• Whip is Sagittarius.
• Child is Capricorn.
• Scythe is Aquarius.
• Heart is Pisces.
• Clouds is Aries.

I love how astrology deepens the meaning of the cards. Here are two examples:

• The House suggests home, family, property, roots, or private life. Add Cancer, and the emotional, protective, domestic layer becomes stronger.
• The Whip represents conflict, repetition, arguments, discipline, punishment, or physical strain. Add Sagittarius, and the message may mean blunt speech or rapid movement.

As always, context matters. What was the querent asking? Is there a Cancerian (House) in the room? Is a Sagitarrius (Whip) person present? The card could just represent the person—or not. It’s complicated, huh?

Marnie Reilly and the Cards in Fatal Vow

The cards aren’t mere props in the Marnie Reilly Mysteries series.

In Fatal Vow, the psychic psychologist is confronted by a an ominous spread that sends a chill up her spine.

A warm breeze billowed the curtains and scattered her cards to the floor before slamming shut the door. With a frustrated groan, she got up to pick up the cards. Seven cards lay face up, and she fell to her knees as fear overtook her senses.

“How do I stop this?” she said, picking up the objectionable spread. The Man, Lilies, Scythe, House, Coffin, Mice, and Cross told her a story too horrid to accept. It confirmed the foreboding energy that shadowed her return to Creekwood.

Uh-oh! That’s all I’m gonna say about that.

A Reading Is a Tool, Not Destiny

Don’t cast away common sense because of a reading. It shouldn’t replace medical/mental health care, financial planning, faith, or personal responsibility. The cards are a tool. That is all.

A good reading can show you where you are. It can suggest where you may be heading, revealing patterns, fears, strengths, opportunities, and possible outcomes. It can hold up a mirror when you are too close to a situation to see clearly.

But remember, you are the master of your own destiny. If you see something in a reading that you don’t like, change direction.

The power is in what you do next. That’s the difference between guidance and surrender.

What Ethical Readers Do and Don’t Do

Ethical readers don’t use fear as a sales tool. They never encourage dependency or promise certainty.

A good reading should clarify, not trap. It should give context, respect boundaries, and remind the person across the table that they still have agency. The goal is practical insight, not scare tactics, fantasy, or endless return visits.

A responsible reader also knows when the issue is bigger than a reading. Some questions should not be answered. They know when a querent requires a different kind of help: a counselor, doctor, lawyer, or other trained professional.

Never Predict Death

Here’s a hill I will die on: Ethical readers do not predict death. Ever.

You can talk about endings, change, transformation, grief, and transition.

You do not tell someone death is coming. That’s spiritual malpractice. And if you are the querent, and a a reader predicts yours or another’s demise, storm out the door and don’t look back.

When People Need Help, Not Another Reading

Readings can be helpful, but they are not a substitute for professional care. If a querent is in an abusive relationship, they do not need a reader telling them to surround themselves with white light and wait for their partner to change. They need safety, not bullshit.

As a reader, your duty of care to the person sitting across the table from you should come before your wallet. Be honest and tell the querent that you are not equipped to help them. If you can refer them to someone who can offer accredited guidance, do it.

Only charlatans sell hope by the hour.

Never Read Someone Without Permission

Do not spy.

It’s not okay to ask the cards what your ex is doing, or what’s happening in your adult child’s private life. Don’t ask what someone thinks of you because you are nosy, jealous, angry, bored, or trying to gain control. That’s trespassing.

If basic decency isn’t enough to stop you, consider this: you do not want karmic law crashing down on your head because you decided to be a psychic peeping Tom. Some doors are not yours to open.

Psychic Junkies and Answer-Shopping

There is a particular client every ethical reader learns to recognize: the person who doesn’t want insight. They’re shopping for someone who will tell them what they want to hear.

They ask the same question again and again. If the answer doesn’t bring them joy, they find another reader. Then another. This querent wants the reader to say their relationship isn’t over, or the warning signs aren’t real.

Cards are supposed to clarify, not anesthetize. Don’t use them to hide from reality or to keep a fantasy breathing well past its natural death. Charlatans thrive in that fog, but an ethical reader sounds the horn, refusing to turn a reader’s psychic addiction into income.

If you’re the querent, ready yourself for an honest reading. A responsible reader won’t back down from setting you straight. Some will be gentle, others won’t. If the cards point to an ending, do not shoot the messenger. Your next step isn’t finding another reader with a happier story. Accept it and move forward.

Was that harsh? Yep. Get over it. That’s how I roll.

Marnie Reilly, The Collective, and the Fraud Problem

The Marnie Reilly Mysteries series takes aim at charlatans, and the fraudulent problem has a name: The Collective. The psychic psychologist loathes people who manipulate the vulnerable with spiritual chicanery.

In fact, in book 1, Divine Guidance, there is a scene in which Marnie watches in horror as a battered woman is told by one fraudster that if she changes her thinking, surrounds herself with white light, and pays for sessions, her abusive husband may become the loving man she wants him to be. Of course, Marnie knows it’s BS and calls it out. She recommends a professional course of counseling. Here’s an excerpt:

 “Listen, folks. Readings can be fun and helpful. Heck, I give readings to my friends sometimes, but I do not think they are appropriate for people who are going through critical life choices. You need a professional for the tough stuff. Let me ask you all a question. Would you go to a psychic for a cure if you had cancer? No? Then why would you when you’re depressed or in an abusive relationship? Critical situations need serious consideration. If you can’t find work, don’t call a psychic and spend money you don’t have. Call a recruitment company. Talk to a career counselor. There are many free services available. Pick up the phone and find one. And if you can’t, call my office. My assistant or I will give you a referral. Please don’t go to someone who sells hope. Meet a professional who has the skills to help you. Hope is a wonderful thing. It can help us through the darkest hours, but you must work toward finding a long-term solution. A psychic can’t help with that unless they are trained in specialized areas like career counseling, psychology, relationship counseling, and services of that sort.”

How’s that for a course of common sense?

 

A Note to Readers and Querents

To readers: study the cards before you influence another person’s life.

Explore and understand the history, the suits, elements, numbers, images, spreads, and combinations. Learn when to say, “This is beyond the scope of a reading.” Know where your qualifications end, and do not use spiritual language to sell hope.

To querents: do not hand your judgment to a deck of cards or to the person reading it. A reading can offer insights, reveal a pattern, raise a question, or confirm something you already suspected. But remember, if the answer makes you uncomfortable, just sit with it before running to someone else, hoping for an answer you agree with. You are the master of your destiny. 

One Last Shuffle Before You Bore of Cartomancy

I’ll hop off my soapbox and end on a positive note.

My friend and fellow author, TL Brown (Tracy) has this advice for people who are afraid of Tarot:

“The cards are little pieces of art that help you look at your life in a different way.”

She’s right, you know. And seriously, stop giving power to inanimate objects. That last bit was me.

Anyway … I love the cards, especially the way a spread can divine sense from a murky situation, and that’s enough magic for me.

Thanks so much for spending time with me. If you enjoyed this blog, please like it and feel free to share a comment. I always respond.

Cartomancy Blog Sources / Further Reading

The Morgan Library & Museum — Visconti-Sforza Tarot Cards: Historical backbone, tarot was created in fifteenth-century Italy as a card game for aristocracy, and its association with occult secrets/divination came centuries later.

The Morgan Library & Museum — Visconti-Sforza manuscript record: Details on the Visconti-Sforza cards: Milan, ca. 1450–1480; rare fifteenth-century Italian painted tarot cards; 78-card structure; Renaissance tarot as a noble card game rather than fortune-telling paraphernalia. Also supports the same early tarot-history section: mid-fifteenth-century luxury decks, Visconti-Sforza material, and the “before fortune-telling.”

Jean Noblet Tarot de Marseille—World of Play Cards

Rider-Waite Tarot—World of Playing Cards

Thoth Tarot / Aleister Crowley Tarot—World of Playing Cards

Horniman Museum & Gardens — Lenormand / Game of Hope object record

Tarot by Maisy — Cartomancy: Reading Playing Cards as Tarot

Labyrinthos — Astrology and Tarot Correspondences

Paul Fenton-Smith — Advanced Tarot

Divine Guidance, Second Edition manuscript, Marnie Reilly Mysteries Book 1 — Shari T. Mitchell

Torn Veil, Marnie Reilly Mysteries Book 2 — Shari T. Mitchell

Fatal Vow, Marnie Reilly Mysteries Book 3 — Shari T. Mitchell

Extra Reading

Check out this interview, featuring fellow authors TL Brown and Julie Embleton: Tarot in Fiction with author TL Brown

Thanks

Every writer needs two more to read their blogs before they go live—especially a long and detailed article like this. Why? Because every author needs authentic friends who will tell them if their writing is rubbish, if they missed a word, or to recommend clarification on murky points. Thanks, Tracy and FGT.